Gilgamesh II: Students Who Saw the Deep

Bard Sequence students Tito Oshuntolu and Kimora James respond to Gilgamesh and to the Bard Sequence Podcast. 

Tito Oshuntolu attends Orange High School in New Jersey and Kimora attends Thurgood Marshall Academy Public Charter High School in Washington DC. 

Transcript

Matt
This plant, Urshanabi, is the plant of heartbeat. With it, a man can regain his vigor. To Uruk the sheepfold, I will take it. To an ancient, I will feed some and put the plant to the test. Its name shall be Old Man Grown Young. I will eat it myself and be again as I was in my youth.

Welcome to the Bard Sequence Seminar Podcast. Today, it's Gilgamesh II: Students Who Saw the Deep.

I'm Matt Park, Director of the Bard Sequence, and today I'll be your friendly moderator. And I'm joined by Kimora James and Tito Oshuntolu. Kimura, can you start by briefly introducing yourself?

Kimora
Hello, my name is Kimora James and I'm currently an 11th grader at Thurgood Marshall Public Charter High School. And I read this book in my Bard English class and it was very informative and very entertaining.

Matt
Thanks Kimora and Thurgood Marshall is in the great not state of...

Kimora
Washington DC.

Matt
Great, thank you. And Tito, would you mind introducing yourself as well?

Tito
Yes, my name is Tito Oshuntolu. I go to Orange High School in Orange, New Jersey. I'm part of the Bard class with Mr. Worthington. And when I first encountered Gilgamesh, I found myself intrigued and apprehensive at the same time as I was a newcomer to the Bard program.

Matt
Great, thanks to you both. So just in a second, we're gonna get into a little bit more, your take on Gilgamesh and what it was like to encounter it and to encounter the Bard class for the first time.

This is the student episode on Gilgamesh. There have been a few episodes with some of our Bard Sequence faculty and with some other professors before, but this is an opportunity for Bard Sequence students from around the Bard Sequence network to have their say and to talk about their experiences with both the course and the text.

So this goes without saying, but we are not experts. We are not experts in the text of Gilgamesh, and we are not here to tell you what Gilgamesh is really about. Instead, what we're hoping is gonna happen is that both Kimora and Tito will tell us what Gilgamesh is to them and why they value the text or not.

They will ground all of their readings in evidence from the text, but if they do a decent job, you should be walking away from this with more questions than answers. They are not here to summarize the text for you. Whether it's a podcast or an essay, you should not spend your precious time giving your audience a literal summary of something that they need to read for themselves.

So with that, let's have one more round of introductions, this time to the text of Gilgamesh. So I am hearing, right, for both of you that there was a bit of apprehension and not quite knowing what you were getting yourself into when you started your Bard Sequence class and when you started Gilgamesh.

Let's hear a little bit more about that and what it was like for you when you first encountered Gilgamesh. Who would like to start?

Tito
I can start on this. I would say that, like as I said before, being a newcomer to the Bard program and diving into an ancient text that felt kind of like stepping into uncharted territory. At first, I was approached with a degree of skepticism, but then being a person that was more into writing and contemporary literature, the idea of kind of diving into an ancient Mesopotamian epic seemed daunting, but, and a little bit outside of my comfort zone. And because I found it that way, I had several conversations with Mr. Worthington, and he did a lot to try to get our class into the book. And even though it seemed unfamiliar, because of the difference between the ancient origins and modern sensibilities, it took some time for me to adjust to the style and language of the epic. And I didn't give it the attention it deserved, and I was more inclined to skim the surface rather than engage with its deeper themes. And as I began to read the book, there were more themes that showed the human experience such as love, loss, friendship, and the quest for meaning.

Matt
Thanks Tito. Kimora, what was your experience like?

Kimora
When I was first introduced into the Bard class, it was a bit different from my normal English class. When we figured out that it would be more writing than I was used to, that was kind of a challenge for me to adapt to. And there were a lot of free writes. But when our first book Gilgamesh was introduced, I wasn't really too excited about it. But as I started digging and reading more into the book, I started finding myself getting more interested on a man and his journey and how it can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. And it's not just one subjective interpretation.

Matt
So I'm hearing from both of you that you had to kind of grow into it a bit or perhaps it had to grow on you.

One of the things I am hearing is that your professors and probably your peers help with that. Can you talk a little bit more, both of you, about how a text perhaps can grow on you? Especially a text which initially you might not have seen too much in or which might have seemed weird or different. How was it able to kind of grow on you?

Kimora
So basically when I first read the text, it wasn't how books are written now and how we talk now. It was kind of older sayings and I wasn't really used to it. So another way it grew on me was me getting used to knowing, like actually knowing what they are saying. And it was kind of tricky at first.

So I feel like that was a reason why I also wasn't interested because it was so hard to figure out what they were saying. But once I learned and once I understood, it became more interesting. And also the story, it grew. It became more complex and it wasn't just a simple story anymore.

Tito
Yeah, so I would like to add to that for me with Gilgamesh, a lot of the time in our class, the way that the Bard was centered was a lot of discussion based writings and discussing about our free writes. And the gradual shift began to occur as I dive deeper into the story and engaged in class discussions and listening to various interpretations and dissecting the underlying themes opened my eyes to the richness of Gilgamesh.

And it basically peeled back the layers of the book and revealed new insights on each page that we turned. And through that, I was able to gain a deeper understanding and love for the book. And that's kind of how Gilgamesh grew on me.

Matt
Tito, you mentioned the language of the text originally, and Kimura has also mentioned the language of the text. Can you speak a little bit more to how you first encountered that language? What parts of the language in particular felt different or inaccessible to you? And then how was it that you made that language speak to you a bit more?

Tito
So I would say in terms of the language, at first when you start a book like that, that's not using language that you have a level of familiarity with, reading out loud is one of the things that Mr. Worthington did a lot in class. And through that, you were able to gain an understanding of the words that were being used. And obviously, you know, in other previous grades that I've been in, reading a lot of Shakespeare, like Romeo and Juliet, books like that, you're able to kind of dissect the words, understand new vocabulary that is used. And I think that obviously, you know, being in 11th grade, maybe reading a book like that seems very unfamiliar at first, but when you dive deeper, it will help you with other books that you might read in the future with the vocab.

Kimora
I also agree and I would like to add on that I knew I would watch like older movies and I was familiar with the way that they talk but I actually never had to read it out loud and my teacher was kind of an expert and helping us depict it and break it apart and basically put it into simple terms so once we got used to it and started becoming more familiar with it.

We started getting used to the words and it wasn't as hard. Although there was a little struggle still left, but it wasn't as much as when we had first started out.

Matt
Kimora, that's really interesting comparing the language to older movies. Are there any older movies in particular that you think of that you can see a connection to the way that they're using language and the way that the text does? I'm really interested in this idea that maybe older films are more closely connected to the language of such an ancient text.

Kimora
As Tito said, Romeo and Juliet, that was kind of really one of my favorite movies growing up, so that kind of helped. And this isn't really like an older movie, but there's a show called Bridgerton, and they kind of talk like that as well, so I was kind of familiar with it.

Matt
Okay, so I haven't seen Bridgerton, but I've read about Bridgerton, so I think I understand what you're talking about. It's a very British show, right?

Kimora
Yes.

Matt
Yeah, and Shakespeare obviously was an English writer who wrote in a very different kind of English than we speak today. So I think perhaps one of the things that translators sometimes do when they're trying to sound very serious is that they summon forth their Shakespeare or their older English and then that gives the translation a kind of seriousness that they're hoping the text will have.

So that's really interesting that you're using Bridgerton there. I think that's very fascinating. That's a really cool connection.

Tito
I was actually going to add to that. In terms of media and shows and things that we consume, I believe that looking at it from a broader perspective, kids in classes reading Gilgamesh and books like that, will be able to dissect it easier. Just because nowadays, even with books like the Bible, there's plenty of different interpretations and different ways that you can dissect it. So, yeah, that's what I wanted to say.

Matt
Sure, and lots of different kinds of translations of the Bible as well, some of which are pretty easy to read for contemporary readers, and some of which are much more difficult because they're older and they do use a kind of different English. Before we move on, I wanted to touch on one more thing that I did hear a bit from you all is this idea of human experience and of this text being particularly old.

This is one of the oldest written things in world history in terms of a written story. And so, when you read this, do you feel like there is a human experience that we can talk about? Meaning, do you feel any kind of human connection to the people that wrote this story over 5 ,000 years ago? Or do you come away with the conclusion that in fact their lives were very different from ours and maybe there's not that much of a connection?

Tito
I feel like, you know, looking at older books in general, and specifically Gilgamesh, there will always be one or two things that you take away from them. And for me, one of the most striking aspects of Gilgamesh, like I mentioned earlier, is the exploration of friendship, love, and the search for meaning. Because as you see in the book, the bond between Gilgamesh and Enkidu, for example, ultimately transcends the boundaries of time and culture because something like love and friendship, those are two things or two values that will not really go out of style because it's something that we relate to right now. So I think taking different morals and virtues from the book will always allow people to connect to those topics.

Kimora
I do feel this book has some sort of humanity in it. Just Gilgamesh trying to figure out who, what he stands as a person and who he is and how the book is a journey of him trying to figure out who he is. I kind of relate to that because even though I'm 17 and I'm still, and I'm almost out of high school, I'm still not 100% sure what I want to do. And I also feel like Gilgamesh, I'm also on a journey and figuring myself out. And also, when Enkidu died, Gilgamesh's humanity started really coming out. So I also feel like in that point of the book, you could see the human side of him.

Tito
I also wanted to add with mortality, I think that that's also one important thing to look at because when talking about life and death, obviously there's instances nowadays where people lose their loved ones and you obviously want to do everything you can to get them back, which when contrasting the book, Gilgamesh was looking for that and ultimately he couldn't find that. And in real life you know, it's not possible to bring somebody back. So I think when looking at those two, I believe everybody would want a second chance with somebody that they lost, but mortality is one aspect that stays true nowadays.

Matt
Yeah, unfortunately, mortality is still very much with us. Still to this day that we are aware of, no one has escaped death, no one has lived forever that we know of.

I really like what Kimora said about being on a journey and life as a journey and the idea that that is in Gilgamesh just as it is in our lives today. And one of the cool things about Gilgamesh is he doesn't figure very much out for most of the text. He's kind of on a journey and he thinks he knows where he's going, but he doesn't really, right? And that's okay and maybe by the end of the text he thinks he's figured some of it out but you know we're not really too sure if he has at all. So Kimura, don't feel too much pressure to figure it all out right now and to know everything right away. The journey will continue.

Kimora
Thanks.

Matt
Alright. Great job, everyone.

We're gonna move on to our next topic, which is the adult version of this podcast. I was on a version of this podcast where I said a bunch of things and two other professors said a bunch of things as well. What did you hear in that podcast that you either agreed or disagreed with, liked or disliked, some things that you would have said instead or addition to the things that the professors said.

Tito
So I would say that one point from the adult podcast that resonated with me during the discussion was I really one person mentioned reimagining tablet six. And I found myself agreeing with the exploration of an alternative scenario, basically where Gilgamesh accepts Ishtar's love and marries her. And for me, the proposal raised an intriguing question about the narrative implications and social dynamics within the epic.

And while the original text presents Ishtar's advances as a source of conflict and rejection, considering an alternative outcome almost challenges us to reconsider the characters and motivations and societal norms of the time. So I would say that was an interesting take on reimagining Tablet 6.

Kimora
One thing that I found interesting and that I agree with from the adult podcast is when a member of the podcast said how there wasn't like traditional gender roles like although there was a mother, there were also many powerful women in the text and I agree with that. And I also feel like that's very surprising to see, especially in such old literature because misogyny was kind of very heavy around that time. So it was nice to see them breaking gender roles and stepping away from their stereotypes.

Matt
Thank you both. Tito, what do you think would have happened if Gilgamesh had accepted Ishtar's overtures to him? Would he have ended up like all of her lovers and ending up regretting the deal, or do you think it might have gone in a different direction?

Tito
Honestly, I think that's actually a good question. I think that if he accept Ishtar's love, it could be a possibility that he would end up like everybody else that married Ishtar. You know, I feel like seeing that in the book, what he decided in not marrying Ishtar was shocking just because like Kimora kind of mentioned, there's a lot of misogyny that's present in the epic.

So I think that if he would have accepted Iztar's love, it probably would have ended badly and the story obviously would have taken a different turn. So I think, you know, that's probably what would have happened.

Matt
Would you have accepted?

Tito
I feel like I wouldn't knowing what could possibly happen to me and being looked at differently as the king because as a king, you have a certain amount of power in the way that people look at you. So I think, I wouldn't accept Ishtar's love knowing what happened to everybody prior.

Matt
And then Kimora, I have a question for you. And again, maybe perhaps bringing back in some contemporary things like films and things like that. There certainly are a lot of powerful women in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Do you think the state of the novel is better or worse than the state of our media today?

By which I mean, what is a better representation of women? Gilgamesh, the 5 ,000 year old text, or 2024 and our various works of fiction, literature, movies, things like that. Are we doing better, worse, or just about the same as 5 ,000 years ago in terms of the way that we portray women today?

Kimora
I think that's a really nice question and I feel like it has gotten a bit better because although there are various different types of women in Gilgamesh, they all seem very angry and powerful. And I also feel like today's literature, there's a mix and it's more inclusive with millions of different personalities that people would not been able to incorporate into stories back then. So I do feel as though it has gotten a bit better, but it's kind of around the same.

Tito
I was going to add to that, there have been a lot of strides towards more equitable portrayals of women in society, but I believe that it's still important to note the systemic inequalities and the harmful stereotypes that still persist in media. And I feel as though with movies and television, in media and pop culture, women are still depicted in narrow and stereotypical roles, such as the damsel in distress or nurturing caregiver. And I believe that these portrayals can reinforce harmful gender norms and contribute to the perpetuation of gender -based discrimination. So I think that, like Kimora said, the way that they were portrayed in the book to now, there's more, kind of more movement, but it's still not to the point where it should be, and having more of a respect for women.

Matt
So what's your recommendations? If, let's give the listeners a recommendation, a novel, a film, a piece of music, something that you feel does a really great job in its portrayal of women. What would you recommend our listeners pick up?

Tito
 I would say one song that comes to mind in terms of music is Respect by Aretha Franklin. I think that, you know, I actually recently did a project on Aretha Franklin and that song and I believe there's, with music, there's different ways of, you know, portraying the lyrics. People always have different views on how a song comes on, how you relate to it. And I think Respect shows, I mean the name just shows everything, respecting women, respecting the decisions that they make. Even now it's very important with a lot of things going on in government such as Roe v. Wade, that is very important. So I would say that, you know, that song brings a vow when I think about that.

Kimora
I would like to add on. One film that I think portrays a certain woman as powerful would be Moana, which is the Disney movie. In Moana, many people thought that the man would save the day and that he would be he would be the one to save the island and that she couldn't do it without him. But it actually shows how she was able to do it alone. And I also think that it broke gender norms because it showed him as weak and it showed him as thinking he wasn't good enough, which is usually what we will see with women in media. But it was the other way around and she persevered and she continued to do it even without his help.

Tito
I would actually like to add to that because as I was thinking about it more, two things came, two movies came to mind actually for me. One being Mulan, the Disney princess movie. I think that it is very, a really good interpretation and something that wasn't really seen before because here you had a woman that was going into the military that was not really seen during that time.

So I think that was one good example kind of showing that. And then another clear one would be hidden figures, where you can see three powerful black women going into NASA and not being respected and having to use different bathrooms and different resources, and they were still able to get the job done. So I think those are two good examples.

Matt 
Very cool. We've got some old school recommendations there. We've got Aretha Franklin and some contemporary stuff. Some of the new Disney movies, I mean, I think they make sense because they are, I mean, Disney has always been known for the hero's journey kind of movies. And more recently, they've been paying a lot more attention to gender. And you do get a lot fewer movies where there is kind of the damsel in distress thing happening in Disney. And it tends to be the women are are heroes of their own movies now. So that is interesting that you all are connecting those to Gilgamesh. So that's kind of cool. 

There was one other part of the prompt, which is anything from the podcast you didn't agree with or would have done or said differently. Was there anything that jumped out to you as you were listening to the podcast and you said to yourself, I don't know if I agree with that or I would have, you know, talked about that a bit differently.

Kimora
I can't think of anything that I disagree with.

Tito
There wasn't for me there wasn't anything that I disagree, disagreed upon. I think, you know, when I was reading it, when I was listening to the podcast, I really liked when they were reimagining the different tablets and different scenarios. But overall, there wasn't anything that I did not connect with.

Matt
Okay, then we did a perfect job. Could not have been better. No, not at all. We did an adequate job. So moving on, I'm now gonna ask you both for your take on the text. So what is your unique reading of Gilgamesh? And what are the parts of the text that really matter to you?

Kimora
My take on Gilgamesh, like I had previously said, it was about a man's journey and him trying to figure himself out. And although he couldn't have everlasting life, we got to see what he got to accomplish with his life. And even after when he helped rebuild the city. Also, it shows change and how it shows character development that I believe. Also humanity like I previously also stated when Enkidu had died.

Tito
For me, one thing that really connected with me and a pivotal moment in the book was when Gilgamesh and Enkidu went to the Cedar Forest. I believe that was an important part in their friendship that they had because they were confronted not only by external challenges, but also by the internal conflicts and vulnerabilities. And in that time, they shared that experience and they were forced to confront their deepest fears and desires gaining a profound understanding of themselves and each other. And I believe that was one important part of the book that showed transformational personal growth. And it basically shattered the ego of Gilgamesh and the pride to reveal the raw humanity beneath him and everything that he stood for from the beginning of the book to that point.

Kimora
I would also like to add on another part that stuck out to me was to see how easily Enkidu could influence Gilgamesh. Like, for example, when Gilgamesh didn't really want to kill Humbaba, I think that's how you pronounce his name, and Enkidu, persuaded him to, I wrote a paper about how Enkidu could be the one who's turning Gilgamesh's heart even even darker. And I wrote about how there could be, like that could be a reflection of their friendship of Enkidu still upset and not really fully healed from when Gilgamesh beat him the first time they met. So I was wondering if that could be like a projection or something like that. Like there's a deeper meaning to it. And it was also Enkidu's fault that they have also got cursed.

Matt
Interesting.  So Kimura, you were talking about really connecting with this idea of the journey again, and in particular with the accomplishments that Gilgamesh makes as he's on his journey. I'm wondering what if he didn't make those accomplishments, or what if as we are on the journey of our lives, we find that we're not accomplishing all that we wanted to accomplish.

What if our lives are not perhaps as exceptional as those of Gilgamesh and you know we're not going to be kings and queens of cities or nations or things like that in all likelihood. What would you say to a person who is on their life's journey and perhaps is not accomplishing what they wanted to? Can they take anything away from Gilgamesh or is this text really just about people like kings and queens and gods and goddesses.

Kimora
I would say that maybe the particular and specific thing that they're trying to accomplish isn't specifically for them and maybe they should try to be on another path. For example, Gilgamesh really wanted eternal life, but with him not finding eternal life, he was able to rebuild the city and have a great effect on the city after he died and I feel as though that was a bigger and greater accomplishment than living forever. So I would say that maybe the path that you're on isn't like the one you specifically need to be on and maybe there's a greater and bigger one waiting for you.

Tito
I would say for somebody that hasn't exactly accomplished their journey or the journey that they're on, I feel as though they can connect to the part of, well basically the entire book where Gilgamesh is searching for meaning and Gilgamesh's quest for immortality can be seen as a metaphor for the human search for purpose and meaning in life and I believe the theme is universal and it's relevant to anybody on any stage of their journey in life. And it can encourage people to reflect on their goals and what they truly seek in life. And nowadays you see a lot of people doing things just for money or just for certain purposes until they find the true meaning and they're a lot happier.

Matt
So if we interpret the goal of the journey as happiness, and if we find that we're unhappy, we should perhaps adjust our journey or realize that maybe we're not on the right path. Is that more or less the takeaway?

Tito
Exactly, yeah.

Kimora
Yes.

Matt
I think that's the takeaway that you get from a lot of actually things today that focus on happiness and setting realistic expectations for happiness and adjusting to reality. So that's really kind of interesting. 

The other thing I really picked up on as both of you were speaking was this idea of a shared experience. So Tito, you were talking about the shared experience and struggles of Gilgamesh and Enkidu as they go to the cedar forest to confront Humbaba and later they'll do other things. They'll fight the bull of heaven together and things like that. But one of the things that is often said about our society today is it can be really individualistic and that a lot in American society pushes people to think as individuals and only of their own experience, their own goals, their own struggles, and not to think as much in terms of shared experience, shared struggles, community, things like this. I'm wondering what you both think about that. Do you find American society today to be extremely individualistic or do you find spaces for those kinds of friendships that are described in Gilgamesh or those kinds of shared experiences.

Kimora
I kind of think both because someone could not be completely selfish and only think about themselves. They can think about their relationships with other people and how they have an impact on the way other people feel. But at the end of the day, we do have to sometimes put ourselves first and put more focus into ourselves. So that's where I can see where the individuality could play a part.

Tito
I feel as though in America a lot of the time individualism is preached.

I believe a shared experience is important in terms of building community and connection. And shared experience can help build a sense of community and belonging when people engage in activities or face challenges together, that they form a bond and create a support network. And I think that's very important because everywhere you go, there will be at least one person in a sea of people that you have a shared experience with. And I think it's important to learn new things and experiences from other people. And to me, that's the beauty of life because this is all our first time living. And I think that we should each make it our duty to take away from somebody and learn something new.

Matt 
Well said.

Okay, we're gonna move on. Our next category is a close reading. So I'm going to ask both of you to close read a particular part of the text that is important to you. You can either, if you have the text in front of you, you can read that passage or you can summarize it for us and basically tell us where it is. Either one's fine. And then just, take a shot at what this passage of the text means to you and why it's important to read it closely.

Tito
So I talked about this a little bit in the essay I wrote basically saying, the joint expedition to the Cedar forest is a pivotal moment in this evolution, revealing the intricate bond between two characters beyond mere conquest. Nature plays a significant role in shaping both external circumstances and eternal emotions, serving as a catalyst for personal transformations that shape the characters of both Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

This epic is a testament to the transformative power of nature, even for the most powerful human beings. And one specific quote that I'm close reading is, Now, oh door, it was I who fashioned you, who lifted you up. Can I now break you up? Can I now tear you down? 

That's on page 56. These words echo with agency and introduce an abstract metaphor.

Gilgamesh's contemplation of the door becomes symbolic of the constructed barriers of human existence, which he as a powerful ruler has crafted. The door in this metaphor represents the artificial constraints, societal norms, and power structures that Gilgamesh has imposed on himself and his kingdom. His question about breaking down the door takes on a metaphorical weight, inviting readers to think about the potential unraveling of the artificial constraints within which Gilgamesh has confined himself.

Matt
Thank you, Tito, that was great. Kimora, what are you close reading?

Kimora 
This is on page 117. It says one third of the city, one third is the garden and one third is the field with the precinct of the goddess Ishtar. These parts in the precinct are all Uruk. This too was the work of Gilgamesh, the king who knew of countries of the world. He was wise, he saw mystery mysteries and knew of secret things and he brought us a tale of the days before the flood. He went on a long journey, was weary, worn out with labor, and returned engraved on a stone the whole story. 

And this stuck out to me because in a paper I wrote about how him telling his story and his story being passed down for generations could be, in a way, a form of eternal life. And it might not be the form of eternal life that he was first seeking out, but it still is by having a legacy that is also a form of living forever.

Matt
Thank you, Kimora. That's interesting. The idea of legacy. Why do we want legacies as human beings? Why do we care that we don't simply disappear when we're gone?

Kimora
I feel like we care because some people don't want to have the idea that they wasted their whole life, not accomplishing anything or just that they just wasted their whole life. So I feel as though having a legacy and being remembered is kind of a way to feed our own ego and kind of, persuade us and make us think that we didn't waste our life when we and have regrets of how we could have been doing something better.

Tito
Honestly, I think people want to have a legacy because it provides a sense of meaning and purpose in their lives and leaving an impact. And the idea of leaving something lasting behind gives individuals motivation and a sense of direction, knowing that the actions that they are doing now can have a long-term impact. A legacy allows people to influence others and contribute positively to society. And I believe looking at it through a different scope, a legacy can, obviously you can either leave a positive or negative legacy that could be, that are valued by future generations, creating a sense of connection and continuity.

Matt
And so what are your legacies going to be? Tito and Kimora projecting into the future, your legacies are going to be what? 

For me, I would probably say something about the way that I've been as a teacher, as someone who's now running a dual enrollment program that benefits students. And perhaps I might also think of myself, I am a father, I have my own biological children. And so I think if I had to answer that question, I'd say something about that, that I was a good father to my kids and that as a teacher and as someone who ran a college program, that I benefited many people and helped them in their own journeys in life is, I guess, what I would say. What would you say? What is your legacy going to be?

Tito
For me, I honestly want to leave a legacy. The first thing I would say in terms of emotions is being somebody that was there, that's always there for their friends and other people. And then as I'm in 11th grade now, when I go to college, I want to go in for finance or eventually go to law school. And I have a really big interest in music and acting, but I believe that education is very important and I want my degree first, because I think that obviously if music didn't take off, then I have my degree with me. But honestly, if I end up going into the law path, I would want to be able to eventually have my own company and make sure that I'm caring for everybody and making the workplace environment healthy. And as to music, I would want to make music that people can connect with.

And I kind of want to inspire people more to get into music. For me, music is something that is very overlooked because I just now, like this year, started listening to albums in full and hearing different things relating to different works of art. So I think that when it comes to music, I would want to make something that could live on for a long time and become timeless.

Kimora
Personally, when I, well one of the careers that I have thought about is being a JAG, which is basically a lawyer for people in the military. And so according to that profession, a legacy I would like to leave is helping people get the justice they deserve and kind of passing on the message that just because you're in the military, that doesn't mean that you have to be treated wrong. When I was younger, I also wanted to go into the military, but I had multiple people telling me it's not safe for women. A lot of bad things happen in the military. So I would like to help make the military safer so that nobody would ever have to hear words like that.

Matt
That brings us to our final prompt, my favorite one and the most fun, which is you are now in charge of casting a movie based on Gilgamesh choose two or three characters and tell me which actors you would like to play them and why. When the adults did this, I think we came up with mostly older actors. So I'm interested to hear if you have some younger actors in mind or maybe you also went old school. Who are you casting in the film adaptation of Gilgamesh and why?

Tito
This is actually a really good question for me. Like I mentioned before, like how I'm into acting and music. Like if I did acting, I would want to take more of a director standpoint after a while. And I feel like if I was casting a movie for Epic of Gilgamesh, for Gilgamesh, I feel like Henry Cavill would be pretty good because from what I've seen, he has like a pretty commanding presence and an ability to portray complex characters and he would be versatile in that. And then for Enkidu, I put Josh Hutcherson from Hunger Games. I think that he would bring a multi-dimensional aspect to the character and convey a wide range of emotions from wild and untamed to deeply introspective. And then additionally for Zendaya, I put Zendaya for Ishtar. Just because, like, seeing all the movies and TV shows that she's done, regardless of whatever role that you put her in, whether it's in comedy, action, she's also very versatile, and she would be able to add layers of depth and nuance to the portrayal.

Matt
Okay, I did have to just Google right now Josh Hutcherson, but once I Googled him, I realized, yes, I do know who that is. So that's not too bad, I'm not too old. I do know him, okay, perfect. All right, I can see that. I can see that as a pretty good casting. Kimora, who do you have?

Kimora 
for Ishtar, I could see she's also a very complex character with a lot of emotion and someone who I could see playing her who was good at expressing emotion would maybe be Angela Bassett maybe or for example Florence Pugh. She's very good at showing her emotion on her face.

With Gilgamesh, I also agree with Henry Cavill because I also picture Gilgamesh in my mind to be kind of very buff. 

Matt 
I will say that Florence Pugh is one of my favorites. I think she's really good. Do you like horror movies at all?

Kimora 
Yes, I love.

Tito 
Yeah.

Matt 
Okay, so have you seen her in Midsommar?

Tito
Oh, Midsommar, I was gonna watch that the other day actually, but I didn't watch it yet. I heard it was very, very good.

Kimora 
Yeah, that's on my to watch list also.

Matt
I love it. I love Midsummer. I think it's really great. I think it does a lot of things really well.

It's not that scary. So if you're looking for a lot of frights and a lot of like jump scares, it's not gonna have that. But it is, there's an overall atmosphere of dread and, you know, creepiness. There's a lot of gender stuff happening in the film, which it sounds like you both might be interested in. You'll have to let me know if you do like Midsommar or not. It's not for everyone. But I thought it was pretty great. And I really like Florence Pugh in it as well. So, I'm digging that choice. I think that's probably my favorite casting is to get Florence Pugh.

Tito 
For sure that would be good.

Matt
All right, well, thank you so much. Kimura and Tito, thank you so much. It takes a lot to come on a podcast as a student and talk about a 5 ,000 year old text. So my hat is off to you both. Thank you so much for joining the Bard Sequence podcast today. And I wish you all the best luck in your continued studies in the Bard program and in your journey of life.

Kimora
Thank you, you as well.

Tito 
Thank you so much.