Antigone: Student Edition

Students from the Bard Sequence program Jentle Brown (Plainfield HS, NJ) ,  Donyjanae Weaver (Thurgood Marshall Academy PCS, DC) , and Aleeya White (Orange HS, NJ) discuss Sophocles' tragic play Antigone. 

Between minutes 25:00 and 29:11 we discuss Antigone's choice of death over life including thinking about this as a form of suicide. While the discussion is not graphic, anyone not interested in engaging with this content should skip this section. 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Matthew Park 
Don't be too single-minded then. Don't think you have a complete monopoly of the truth. Isn't it true that people who refuse to see any other point of view but theirs often get shown up and discredited? However acute one is, there's no disgrace in being able to learn, being flexible. 

Welcome to the Bard Sequence Seminar Podcast. Today, it's Antigone.

And I'm Matt Park, Director of the Bard Sequence. Today, I'll be your friendly moderator. And I'm joined by Aleeya White, Donyjanae Weaver, and Jentle Brown. Aliyah, can you please start by introducing yourself?

Aleeya White
Hi, my name's Aleeya White. I go to school in Orange High School in Orange, New Jersey, and I'm an upcoming senior.

Matt
Thanks, Aleeya. Donyjanae? 

Donyjanae Weaver 
name is Donyjanae Weaver. I am 18 years old and a rising senior at Thurgood Marshall Academy in Washington DC. I am interested in marketing in college.

Matthew Park 
Awesome, thank you Donyjanae. And finally, Jentle.

Jentle Brown
Hi, my name is Jentle. I'm 17 years old. I go to Plainfield High School in Plainfield, New Jersey. I'm upcoming senior and I want to study creative writing in college.

Matt

Thank you so much to everyone. Thank you for making the time to come on the podcast. 

Before we get started, full disclaimer. We are not here as experts who are going to tell you what Antigone is really about, nor are we here to have the quote unquote final say on the text. Instead, what we are going to talk about is what Antigone is to us and why we value the text or not. We're going to ground our readings in evidence from the text. But if we do a decent
you should be walking away from this with more questions and answers. 

We are also not here to summarize the text for you because whether it's a podcast or an essay, you should not spend your precious time giving your audience a literal summary of something that they need to read themselves. 

So let's go ahead and get started with our context. Everyone, tell me about your first meeting with this text. Was it in fact in your Bard Sequence Seminar class? And how did you first meet this text? What did you first think about it? Tell me about your initial impressions.

Aleeya 
So I first read it during my Bard class and I mean my first impression when we first started it, I really just thought that Antigone was a girl that was just like trying to break the rules or something like that but as I read more into it I feel like my perspective changed a lot and I really looked at the passivity in the play. So between like, Ismene, Antigone's sister, or the chorus, they took a lot of backseat when it came to Creon's tyranny and what he was doing to the people in the play. So that was my first impression.

Donyjanae
I would say that my first impression was also quite similar to Aliyah's. I've always liked pieces of literature, especially with women going against power figures. So I'd probably say that would probably be my impression going into Antigone. But I kind of figured out as we read closer that it was much more than that. It also dealt with family roles and issues within families, especially with Creon being Antigone's uncle, that was a really shocking piece in there. So I'll probably say my biggest takeaway from the book was family.

Jentle 
My initial first reactions to this text was that Antigone was a very stubborn girl who put her morals before authority. I took it as she had strong principles that she wanted to abide by that if she had to die for it, then that is what she was going to do and how family, even you have to honor your family even in death.

Matt
Great, thank you all. I'm hearing a bit about family and we're definitely going to get to that because that is one of our prompts today is talking specifically about family. So I'm going to push that, for now, to the side. I want to talk a little bit more about, Aaliyah, something that you brought up in terms of passivity and the passivity of certain characters relative to Creon, the king, the ruler. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by passivity? Which characters do you feel were being passive? And what would it have looked like if they were more actively opposing Creon?

Aleeya 
So during class I actually wrote my final essay on the passivity of all the characters, well not all the characters, but the ones that were being affected by it and I especially wrote about Ismene because you know her brother also died but she was more afraid of being punished than just going and getting revenge for him, I guess. And I actually have a quote that she said, if I could find it.

She said, "I do not dishonor them, but to do this against the state, have no strength for it." She's admitting that she knows what Antigone is wanting to do is right, but her deep fear of going against Creon is what's holding her back from actually doing what she wants to avenge her brother.

Matt
Thanks, Aleeya. Gentle Donyjanae, do you also see certain characters in the play as being passive, overly passive, or do you understand, know, or empathize perhaps a bit more with them in terms of them not taking direct action?

Jentle 
Someone that I sympathize with. I sympathize with Haemon, Creon's son. I sympathize with him because he was close to marrying Antigone and he really deeply loved her and once he found out that she had died he was like in a fit of rage so I have sympathy for him because he really didn't have a say in what was going on.

Donyjanae
To add on, I would probably say I don't really sympathize with them, but I like, I understand because we as humans, we like, we would like to think we know the difference between right and wrong. But when we're like, when we're going against like authority figures or people that have power, it's kind of hard to go against them, especially knowing that like, you know, you have a family to take care of or like you might might die, because like, wouldn't want to die just to go against what you think is wrong, but like, if you really do think it's wrong, you would go against it like Antigone did. 

Matt
Sure, and I'm thinking also not only of Antigone, but also what's happening right now in America. People are having discussions right now about what's going on in the country and what people should or should not be doing. I'm interested to hear your take on that and how what's happening in America right now might relate to Antigone.

Jentle
My take on what's happening in America and relating it to Antigone is how we as people have our own ideas of what is right and wrong and when it comes time to stand up to it and stand up to those in higher power that are, that we feel are wrong, it takes a lot because again, they are in higher power. And if you have anything to lose, you also have to think about that. hearing and seeing what's going on in America, we are like in the Antigone's places. And we, as in people are in Antigone's places, like place, because we want to stand up to the higher power, but we also have to think about what it will cost us and how it will affect those around us.

Donyjanae 
Yes, I will add on. Like during my time reading Antigone, it was really easy to like criticize as Ismene for not standing up and defending her brother. But like once you like take a sit back and you like kind of realize it, it's like anybody in the real, in the real world will like fear Creon and fear what could happen to them. I feel like Antigone is definitely someone we should look up to to go against, but I would probably consider myself an Ismene even though I criticized her and was like, that's your brother. But it's also like, this is her life too. Ismene has a life too that she wants to live. So although Antigone is choosing death, she's choosing her brother and what's right. Ismene also has the ability to choose herself and I feel like that's what a lot of people in America are doing right now. They're choosing themselves and although that might not be the right thing, I would probably say it's the only thing available to them at the moment.

Aleeya
I definitely agree because of course everybody is gonna have a fear of getting hurt or losing their lives, but that shouldn't stop us from speaking our minds because at the end of the day there's only so many people in higher positions, as a majority, we're the people that should have a say in what happens in our government or healthcare or to our bodies, et cetera. So when people do protests or anything similar, I feel like it really shows a good character because you shouldn't have to be afraid to speak out or to speak up about things that are happening that especially will affect you. And a lot of the time these, like people in higher positions, they do a lot of things that won't affect them to a bad extent, but it'll always affect us because we're the majority of people. 

Matt
Okay, thank you. Well, I just have one other follow-up question on this first category and then we'll kind of move on to hear your unique analyses of Antigone, which is Antigone is a play, of course, and I'm interested in your reaction to it as a play. Did you enjoy reading it more or less because it was a play? In general, do you like reading plays? Do you not like reading plays? Had you read similar things to Antigone? Or was this a very new type of reading to you?

Aleeya
Before, well, when we were in class, I really did like the play because we would give people certain roles. We would do group work and, let's say it's like a group of five, It would be me playing Creon, someone playing Antigone. It gives us a lot to, I guess, act, because it's more interactive than reading just a book, in my opinion. So I definitely did like it.

Donyjanae
Yes, I would definitely agree. Reading a play definitely, there's more room for fun to make it fun because I know like books like this or like plays like this are not typically like what us young people might read today and so making it like interactive making it fun definitely keeps keep us engaged throughout the book and I would probably say it helped us understand it more so I definitely had a lot of fun reading Antigone.

Jentle 
For me, reading Antigone and knowing that it is a play leaves room for you to put yourself in the shoes of the characters once you read it. I'd say reading it gives you more visualization of what could potentially happen before you see the play.

Matt
Okay, thank you all. Time to move on to your take. What is your unique reading of the text? Which parts of the text matter most to you? Make sure to cite evidence in support of your analysis.

Donyjanae
My reading of the text would be like I can use the quote from Antigone where she says "Because you choose life and I choose death." To me that is like the main takeaway of the book. We know from reading Antigone that her brother was a really big part in what she did and what she did throughout the book and I feel like her saying that she chooses death means that she chooses her brother and deciding to bury him. chooses that part of death because that is what she feels is right. And Antigone is not ashamed of what she is doing. Instead, she embraces it and is content with, in her words, choosing this death. I feel like that is my unique reading. And I will probably say that is the most important part to me in relation to the text because it's how Sophocles and other people describe Antigone I feel like loyalty is a very big deal for Antigone and so in her like part she could choose life she could choose to follow Creon and like choose herself but she chooses to be selfless and choose her brother so feel like that's my takeaway

Jentle 
My unique reading of Antigone is it is a clash between the individual morals versus authority. I have a quote on page 63 from lines 82 to 85. says, "I will bury him and even if I die in the act, the death will be glory." To me, this shows that death to her isn't a big thing if she's doing it in good, like doing it in good. To me this shows the overall, like the overall book of Antigone is her standing up for what is good and what is right and if she has to die for it then she thinks she will be glorified for her acts.

Aleeya 
My take, again, it goes back to passivity. I believe that the chorus and Ismene's passivity fuels Creon's tyranny. Because nobody, besides Antigone, nobody was speaking up against him and his rules. So he got fueled by the fact that nobody can tell him anything.

I have a quote that Antigone says and she says :These two these two think it too, but hold their tongues for you." So everybody knows that what Creon is doing is wrong, but they again they hold they tuck their they hold their tongue, because they're afraid of the consequences that will happen to them 

Matt
Thank you all. I do want to follow up on a few ideas I heard. So one is the idea of the individual. So the individual versus the collective or the individual versus the authority. What do you all feel like is the correct balance between these things and how do we see that in Antigone in the text?

What role should an individual have within a society in which you are living alongside other people? What role should an individual have or what responsibilities should they have relative to those who are in power in those societies? Those who make the rules, those who make the laws.

This is a discussion which has obviously been around for as long as there has been human society. And that is very much true again today in which people are still wrestling with this idea of the individual. How much rights should the individual have? What responsibilities should they have? Should they simply listen to what those in power say? When should they defy power? I'm interested to hear where you all land on this question.

Jentle 
I would say for me I would say the role of an individual person is to come together and have, be one accord and because what we think is who we put in higher power if that makes sense. I would say the individual moral is each person has their own morals individually and they will take that and carry it and once they come to the conclusion they will put whoever they think fits their morals in power, but when that person begins to go against their morals then it becomes a problem for example in Antigone, Creon, most people in Antigone are not on the same page with being with Creon but like think Donyjanae said that they hold their tongue because they are scared and I think that is where individually everybody is like the separation is created.

Aleeya
No person is above another person. So I feel like we shouldn't necessarily put somebody above another person to decide what goes on in our lives. And I think that's something that was definitely happening in Antigone and then it backfired. But I don't think they had a choice in Creon becoming the leader, but they definitely could have made it so that he didn't. Or they could have had an election. Something so that they would be in charge of who's in power. Because at the end of the day, the people are the voice and they're gonna be the ones that are affected. So it shouldn't be one person deciding what happens to everybody. If that makes sense.

Donyjanae
Yeah, I would definitely agree. It should never be just one person deciding for the collective. I would say that as a community, although like the individual being different from the community, that's fine. But together, people are stronger. I feel like we should never come to the point where like we're separated between like what is wrong as what is right because right is right and wrong is wrong. I feel like Antigone although she was like very strong very powerful. I feel like, if everyone came together. I feel like we could have definitely got a different ending although Creon did learn, like he learned towards the end of the book like that what he did was wrong and he was mourning the loss of his family That doesn't take away the fact that Antigone is still dead. So I feel like that is also the consequences of individualism in the community. I feel like if we were all together, there would definitely be a difference between like the ending of what happens in the real life and that also goes for the world right now. Like we're definitely separated. So that just shows like the effects of it, I would probably say.

Aleeya 
I also feel like it ties back into selfishness, because Creon was definitely on a power trip and it definitely fueled him to do more and like you said like he definitely learned what his lesson after everybody in his circle died, but it shouldn't take you losing people to realize that what you're doing is wrong. It took him entirely too long for him to realize the consequences of his actions and that definitely happens a lot in our society where people will continue to push and do things, but then like when somebody snaps back at them then they realize like maybe i took it too far like using that as an example

Donyjanae
Yes, definitely. And it's not like Creon was like sad about his actions that he caused in the community or like him as a leader being like, like a dictator basically. He was just sad that his wife and his son died, which I mean, that's fine. You can be sad about that, but it's like, you should also be sad about the hundreds of people that you're affecting by your actions.

Matt
Creon, you know, he starts to feel bad as soon as the consequences of his actions start to set in and it becomes clear that he has, you know, angered the gods and there's now going to be retribution. So it is somewhat difficult to take his repentance very seriously because he's kind of like someone who only apologizes after the consequences have hit them, right, and not before. Aleeya, I do hear what you're saying in terms of a democratic form of government being preferable to that of having a king, right, or having a dictator. There was some limited democracy in ancient Greece, particularly in Athens, but even in that democracy, it was very heavily restricted who could vote and who could not vote. And so that was a society that had a lot of slaves, for example, and obviously they could not vote. Women were not allowed to vote. You had to be a male citizen of that particular city to vote. So, you know, again, the society we're looking at here in Antigone is not democratic. There is a king and his name is Creon and he makes the rules, right? And so that is what we see in the text. 

I did want to bring up one other idea too that I heard from your initial discussions here, which was Donyjanae's idea of choosing life or death. And this is essentially what Ismene says to Antigone, which is you're choosing death. In burying our brother, you are choosing death. Creon has made a law and he has told us very clearly what the punishment will be. If you go and bury him, they will catch you and they are going to sentence you to death. Why would you choose death? And so this is an interesting question about when can or should a person actually think about choosing death over life?

There are a number of ways which we can interpret this, which is, you know, going into a very dangerous profession, going into a war, for example, where you know you might be killed. At what point, you know, should a person risk their life or not? Or it can bring up more recent topics, things like assisted suicide, which is, does a person ever have the right to choose death over life? I'm interested to hear what you think.

Donyjanae
I feel like in order to choose death, like Antigone, I feel like she didn't really think about it. She just automatically did it. Like that was her brother. She was going to choose her brother no matter what. But I feel like a normal person who it doesn't include their family members, I feel like you have to be content with the idea and you really have to know right from wrong. Like you really have to be stuck on this. It might take like a lot of thinking, because I mean like, I mean even going into a war, I have military family. And so like, when you're thinking of doing something for like the collective or the greater good, you have to like really have no choices left. Like this is the last choice. This is the last resort. If it's not this, then it's gonna be that. So I feel like under those conditions, it makes it easier to choose death. And I mean, if when you're thinking of the life that you're living, if it's not like in the life in Antigone, for example, that wasn't a life. They were like under rule of Creon. They couldn't do what they wanted to do. They couldn't bury the people that they loved. When you see something in your living and it's not a life, it makes it easier to choose death.

So I'll probably say that.

Jentle 
To piggyback off what she was saying about the life that Antigone was living, because of the past of the choices that her family made it made it harder for her to live her life to the fullest which made it easier for her to choose death. I want to connect it to people that like go to the military and also acquires a certain amount of selflessness that you have to have if it's not involving your family. Another thing that I also want to add is that they couldn't marry because of what their father (Oedipus) and mother did. So it's like if you look at their circumstances they couldn't marry, they couldn't reproduce, they basically were stuck in a pocket that was very like unpleasant for them. And even though Ismene wanted to live on a strength of hope, Antigone from the very beginning one like chose death as her way out of this life. So it just depends on how you are living and what are your living circumstances to make you choose death

Aleeya 

I definitely agree because like like both of you said, Antigone, from probably a baby, had no control over what would happen during her life and she just had to follow it. So I feel like her deciding to end her life was or killing herself was her finally being in control of what would happen to her and her decision in life and I feel like people do, when it comes to like suicide, people definitely do that a lot because maybe they don't necessarily know how to go about it. You know, they have, like, okay, for example, we don't decide if we have to go to school or work. We just have to do the things that we have to do in order to live. But I feel like people take their lives because they don't want to do it. And, ugh, I don't know how to say it. I hope it makes sense, though.

Jentle 
I think to try to elaborate on what Leah is saying, I think that she is saying that people that commit suicide feel like they have no control over their lives or what is happening to them. So they feel like their only way or only form of control over their current situation is to end their life as a form of regaining what they have lost. A lot of people, they come to those conclusions because either they're in a bad financial state, bad living state, or bad mental state even. And at any point, at any point of those three, they just feel powerless and they have no control over what is happening to them. to them gaining control is to end their life. 

Matt
We are going to move on now to our close reading. Pick a passage, word, or phrase that is worth reading closely. Why does it matter? And how does the way that it is written or translated matter? So what did you all choose for your close reading?

Jentle 
For me, I chose on page 82, line 510, "I was not about to break them, not out of fear of some men's wounded pride." And then the next line was, "Die I must." To me, this line shows that Antigone's actions are also deeply rooted in her beliefs of the gods. It's not only that she wants this to happen, that the gods are saying that this is the respectable thing to do if somebody dies in your family to bury them. It also shows to me that it also shows that her defiance is, she has a reason for her defiance. A lot of people think defiance comes from someone just simply being ignorant but in some cases defiance comes from them having strong beliefs that drive them to their conclusions.

Aleeya 
quote I picked, which was on page 23, is Creon saying, "You speak insufferably when you claim the gods have some concern for this carcass." And he's referring to Polynices as a carcass. And it really takes away his Polynices humanity and his death, basically, saying like, he's just a body, he was not a person. And I remember in class we were talking about language and it really shows power. So when he called his body a carcass, he was basically saying that he doesn't deserve any kind of respect and he doesn't deserve a proper burial, which is what he didn't give, Polynices. So it definitely shows how far Creon was willing to go to keep control and to keep his power and why other people were afraid to fight back because they were scared like the same thing that happened to Polynices would happen to them.

Donyjanae
For me, a scene that really stood out to me was the argument between Antigone and Ismene when they were in the jail cell and where Antigone says, "I won't accept a friend who's only friends in words." I mean, it's easy to say to someone, I love you and I care for you. But once you actually do those things, it makes a huge difference. Ismene, in the beginning of the book, she straight out told Antigone, no, was a bad idea. Do not do this. But she kind of flipped her script towards the middle of the book. And it's like to Antigone, she doesn't accept that. Like if you, if you tell her, no, this is the wrong thing to do, you can't change your mind and like, be like, I'm on your side now. To her, that's not being, I feel like Antigone is a very loyal character.

If you're going to say you're going to do something, you should show it in your actions. to her, and Ismene not being there for her in the beginning, she couldn't be there for her in the end. So feel like when she was like, when Ismene said that, why am I cut off from your fate? When in the beginning of the book, as soon as she decided to not go against Creon, there was no other discussion needed. So to me, that was like, it's really important to me, because Antigone was so big on her idea that she was literally arguing with the only blood she had left on earth. It didn't matter. She was going to follow through with what she did and if you weren't there from the beginning, it didn't matter.

Matt
Gentle, I want to follow up on what you were saying, about the strong religious component of the play and the way in which religious beliefs really determine some of what happens here.

Again, this is also a question that continues to resonate back then and today. In the past, it was much more common that the leader of a state was also a religious leader, especially in the society that we're looking at in Antigone. And in many societies, it was almost expected that the leader of the government or of the state might also be something like a high priest or a religious leader. Today we have a secular government in America, we have a president, and the president may be very religious or maybe not. There's no requirement that they be so and no one looks to them necessarily as the high priest of America or the leader of American religion.

I'm interested in what you all think about the role that religion plays in government and the role that you think it should play in government. Should religion be close to government? Should it be kept far away from government? What should a good society look like in terms of its relationship to religion?

Jentle 
I think in this case with Antigone, that the government in the book were kind of close to religion but they kind of pushed it to the side when Creon became ruler. Now, to me, in real time, like in some places where they have a high priest as like, and like for us, we have a president, they have a high priest. To me, I think religion either can be good or bad in a community, because some people will use religion to excuse bad behavior.

And then other times, religion can bring you closer to the others in your community. An example I have of someone using religion in a bad way was there was this guy who used religion to get followers and then they all offed themselves in hopes that under him they would get to where they wanted to be. And that is my example of people using religion in a bad way when it is supposed to be used in a good way to bring you closer to those in your community and bring you closer to the one that you are worshiping. 

I think, I don't necessarily think it should be incorporated now in government being that our government is kind of like divided with their own ideas and then you have the individuals who may follow the same religion that feel like, well this isn't how it's supposed to be and religion can cause lot of controversy in today's society. 

Donyjanae
I would definitely agree. Religion has caused a lot of controversy. like, I feel like just because like when you're speaking of like the different religions and the different churches, there's a lot of really deep and corruptive things that go on in those places. And that goes the same for government. Government, courts, and the people that are politicians, there's a lot of corruptive things that go in there. When you mix corruptive and corruptive, there's no good ending. So if you're trying to the best for the people and do what the people need, you should never mix religion in it because first, not a lot of people, not everyone follows the same religion, not everyone follows the same beliefs.

Also, you have a lot of people using religion to hate on other people and what other people have going on. So once you mix personal beliefs and human rights, there's no middle ground. I feel like that is what is going on a lot in today's society. A lot of people are using religion to hate on others. Using religion, they're taking away human rights, and that's not a good thing, but when looking into Antigone I feel like Antigone said one thing that really stuck with me she said like the rules that Creon is using is not what the gods believed in. Creon was taking the gods like messages and using it in the wrong way and I feel like that is what a lot of politicians are doing now they're using like what God was saying, like God verses in the Bible, to take away human rights once you take away like once you misconstrue someone's words to take away what humans should have like anyway that is that's like that was that is what Antigone was fighting for the whole time.

Aleeya 
I also think it's very hard to incorporate religion into society today, because America is like a mixing pot. There's so many different cultures and people in America now and there's so many different religions and beliefs that there's no way for there to be one set religion that dictates everybody in America. But if I was to go back to Antigone, the quote that I picked out, like when he says "you speak insufferably when you claim the gods have some concern for  him," Creon was using the people's, I guess, belief in God to disrespect Polynices. So he was basically saying that the gods don't care for him and his body and that's why he has no concern for what's going to happen to Polynices. And I think that he was, I think because he saw himself in a higher power, he would, he also thought that he was the spokesperson for God and the religion when that's not, that's not the case at all. Not, a single person can't tell you what God is saying to you or what they have planned for you. Because at the end of the day, you're in charge of what happens to you. Of course you could follow any kind of religion and you could follow a god, but you definitely have to be in charge of what happens to yourself, if that makes sense.

Matt
Yeah, I mean you all bring up really good points there and when we are looking at Antigone, everyone in that play believes in the same religion. They all believe in the same gods and so there's no real religious debate among them as to who the gods are and things like that. But there is a debate as to what the gods want. Whereas if you look at America, you can find literally people from every world religion here in the United States of America and while it is a majority Christian country that is far from the only religion and we do have you know things in our Constitution that say that one religion can't be the only one. 

I do also want to follow up on one thing that Aleeya said. You chose a quote that I also respond to a lot when I read the text, which is this idea of referring to a dead body as a carcass and whether or not that causes it to lose its humanity. Human beings are fairly unique on this planet in that we bury our dead. We have burial ceremonies and again it looks different in different societies, different religions might do it this way or that way, there's a wide diversity of how people bury their dead. However, generally speaking, we do bury our dead and there aren't a whole lot of examples in the wider animal kingdom of other animals burying their dead. So that is something very human.

I am curious in what you all think about this. Why is it such a big deal for human beings to bury our dead? What's up with that? Does it actually make us less human if we were to not bury our dead? If we were to, you know, if I was a fox living out in the woods and I died, that would be it. Wherever I fell would be my final resting spot and then natural processes would occur. Why don't we as people do that? Why do we go through all these steps of burying our dead? 

Donyjanae 
I feel like the idea of like eternal rest is a reason why we decide to bury our like loved ones because just leaving them like let's say like, the idea of eternal rest is I feel like a reason that we decide to bury our loved ones just because like as you said like just imagine like a dead animal in the middle of forest. That just seems like it's just very like disrespectful like when you love someone you want them to be like you want them to rest well you want them to be content in their surroundings when they're long gone out of this earth wherever they may go.

And so, I feel like although it's a lot of steps of burying someone or like, let's say like you, I forgot the word, but cremate, let's say you cremate someone. Those two are like two ways I feel like people decide to take care of their loved ones or like lay them to rest in the way they feel like their loved one would be wanted. I feel like we all want after we're gone to be treated with respect. And I feel like burying someone is how we show that respect.

Jentle 
To me, think us as humans, we bury our loved ones because I would say it's within religion, in most cases because if you look in different religions, burying our loved ones is always a thing that is required of us. I say this because in some religions like in Christianity we believe that when you bury someone that is putting the body back where came from and then the soul goes wherever it's going to go. It just depends on the belief. 

Now the other part of it where it's like why don't we just drop the like an animal and just stay there. Again, I don't think... it'd be very inhumane. See, it's different for me because an animal and the difference between an animal and a human is that we are more evolved than animals. So I think it being that we are more evolved, more comes with our death than an animal. For example, if you're driving and you see a deer and the deer is just dead. To us, it's sad to see because that is another living creature, but it's different if we are driving and we see a human dying. We'll get out and try to do anything we can for the human, call the police, CPR, anything, because we are more evolved beings. We have feelings. We feel different things and stuff like that. So that's what I'd take away from.

Aleeya 
also think it's because as humans we are very sentimental people. From a young age, know, when you, as soon as you're a baby, you're gonna stick close to your parents and the people that raised you or you were surrounded by. Sometimes I watch like videos about animals and stuff and I see like, like babies, they don't stay by their mothers very long before they have to fend for themselves and actually go out into the wild and find their own food, find mates, and then do the whole process over again. For us, we cherish the people that are around us. And I'm not saying that animals don't, but it's definitely more, I guess, for us, because we're not in situations where we have to I guess, fend for our lives, like to find stuff or whatever. We're just going day by day and creating experiences and memories with loved ones. 

Matthew 
Yeah, I mean, I agree. There is this really interesting bit in Antigone about what it means to be human, connected to this idea of burial, connected to this idea that there's a corpse out there in the field and the animals are eating it. And what does that mean? Clearly it means quite a lot in the play, and I imagine it would mean quite a lot to us as well.

Moving on to our student prompt. So whenever we have a student edition of the podcast, I do try to have students choose one of the prompts. And so what we came up with is the idea of family dynamics. Family dynamics are at the center of Antigone and not just between Antigone and Ismene, though that may be one of the most obvious threads. When thinking of other pieces of literature or films and the importance of sister bonds or sibling bonds in general, or you could describe in general the idea of family dynamics and family bonds in Antigone. So when you read this play, which is really so focused on family, what is that make you think of, what do you perhaps compare it to?

Aleeya
I want to bring up like Creon's relationship with his wife. I feel like, his wife took a backseat when it came to how he dictated and how he treated his son and his son's girlfriend or wife Antigone. And I feel like it relates back to older times how women were supposed to take care of the kids, cook, clean, do all that. They don't necessarily have a say in what goes on and what their husbands do and how they run their lives, but I feel like when it comes to a marriage, the woman should have as much as the say as the man does. Especially when it comes to children. The reason why she killed herself is because her son did and she felt a type of way, but I feel like she could've prevented his death if she stepped in more when it came to how Creon parented and how he treated other people. 

Donyjanae
Yeah, so I'll probably add, like my interpretation of like family bonds and family roles, like I dived really deep into Antigone and Ismene. So during my time in the Bard seminar, we did a teacher class project and me and my partner, we dived into sister bonds and sibling bonds and we kind of compared the bond between Antigone and Ismene to another sister bond from a TV show called Arcane and we kind of really saw how Antigone kind of paved the way for how sisters are interpreted in literature and entertainment now. And I feel like the main message throughout a lot of like these literature and like entertainment is like you don't get to choose your family, you just have to love the one you got. And I feel like, even though Ismene and Antigone had their differences, they fought a lot. At the end of the day, they still loved each other and that was like that was still their family. And that goes the same for a lot of other like TV shows and books. 

Like although you may say you hate your family, but when it comes down to it, like if someone is like messing with them, you're going to be at their side. You're going to be there for them. So feel like that was like a thing that Sophocles did really good at interpreting throughout the book that like it was just really main centered around like family and the bonds between each other and like because Ismene like she didn't agree in the beginning she didn't agree with what Antigone was doing but when she saw her sister was in trouble she was by her side as soon as she could get there so that just kind of shows like although we may have our differences, when you have that bond between each other between blood you're you're gonna be there for them

Jentle
My take on family bonds is between Antigone, Ismene, and Polynices. I have a quote from page 61, line 55, and it says, "He is my brother and deny it as you will your brother too. No one will ever convict me as a traitor." To me, this shows that Antigone was trying to show Ismene that we are doing this for our brother. And like Donyjanae said, when Ismene saw Antigone in trouble, she ran to her side as fast as could. She was willing to die with her. And I think at this point of the book, Antigone was trying to make Ismene realize that you should make this decision now before it gets to the peak and then you make the decision because then it's too late. But I think overall the book is showing that you have to stick with your family no matter what, no matter what decisions they make, what path they take, just any whatever situation your siblings and your mother or your father end up in, you always have to show your loyalty to them because they are your blood.

Matt
Do you all have siblings? And if not, is there anyone in your life who is kind of like that stand-in sibling, like they're, you know, brother from another mother kind of people?

Donyjanae
So yes, I do have a brother and I also have cousins that I look towards as my siblings. And if they were in any trouble possible, I would definitely be Antigone in this situation. I feel like once you grow up with someone and you know them better than a lot of other people, it makes it easier for you to defend them and stand by their side. Because you went through, ups and downs. They've seen you you cried, when you laughed. So it makes it easier to step in and I can definitely see where Antigone was coming from throughout the book. Because an outsider basically is telling her that she can't bury her brother, someone who she grew up with. You can't tell someone how to run their family. That's like someone telling you how to raise your kids basically. And I definitely feel like if that was any of my brothers or my cousins, I would definitely go in.

Jentle
Yes, I have siblings. I have older siblings and I have little siblings. I definitely would be the Antigone if something ever happened to either one of my siblings because it is just the fact that you grow up with them, you grow, you make connections with them, memories, and you would never want to see anything happen to your siblings or anyone in your family. So I think it is a... for like if something happened to my siblings I wouldn't think like, oh this can happen to me. It would be a more of a reactive thing. Like if it's a parent and their child is in danger. It's a more of a you over me type of thing.

Aleeya 
I'm an only child so I feel like, I don't I wouldn't say I necessarily have somebody I see as like a sibling since I feel like it was harder for me to get closer bonds with people because I never had a close relationship with anybody, but I feel like It kind of just depends on your moral compass and like if you see somebody like this, I don't know, in trouble, personally I feel like I would help them. Even though I don't have anybody to necessarily look up to, as long as you have a good moral conscience and standing, you're gonna do whatever you can to help the person no matter if you know them or not.

Matt
Yeah, mean, Aliyah, that's more of what we might call a humanist approach or a cosmopolitan approach, which is essentially, it doesn't matter if a person is connected to me by blood. It doesn't matter if they're my sibling or if they're from the same country as me or if they're from wherever or if they're similar or different to me in different ways, that there's a kind of common humanity, right, that you would recognize in those situations regardless. 

Should we think more in terms of I am a citizen of the world, I'm a human being, and I should not put those closest to me before others just because I don't know them, just because they're not related to me, just because they're not from my country? And how do we kind of navigate that tension between treating the foreigner, the stranger, the person I don't know not related to me? How do I treat them correctly and humanely, and then how do I balance that with those who are close to me who are my family? Do I in fact owe more to my family than I do the stranger? That is an interesting question.

Okay, so we're moving on. We've got two categories left. Our next one is you're casting a movie based on the text. Choose two to three characters. Who are you going to cast to play them and why? I'm interested to hear who you casted.

Jentle 
For me, I casted Florence Pugh as Antigone because she has a history of playing intense characters characters that are like morally conflicted and stuff just going through a lot of internal internal conflict and then for Creon I chose Denzel Washington due to Denzel Washington playing characters that basically build their way up to power and then once they get there they're entirely corrupted and the commanding presence his characters have. And then for Ismene I chose Zendaya. I think she would portray Ismene's kind of like the gentleness Ismene has throughout the story, but also showing the inner strength that she has to endure what's going on.

Donyjanae 
So for my three characters, I chose Antigone, Creon, and Haemon. For Antigone, I would choose Jennifer Lawrence to play her. I was a huge fan of The Hunger Games growing up. And definitely, I feel like Antigone and Katniss have similar traits between them. And Jennifer Lawrence did a great job playing Katniss, so I feel like she would kill it with the Antigone role. And funny enough, for Creon, I also chose Denzel Washington. Like I love his range like he's an actor with a great range of characters and I feel like seeing him play like an evil high up role would definitely be good and also like him in Gladiator 2 like seeing him in that like like what's it called like in that era like it definitely upped my choice of him playing Creon and for Haemon I chose Timothy Chalamet. And I know like he's known for like his emotional roles. And I feel like Haemon is definitely a very emotional loving character, especially for his love for Antigone and like his death. So feel like Timothee Chalamet would play him really well.

Aleeya 
Okay, so for the people I picked for Antigone, I put Sophie Turner from Game of Thrones and she played Sansa and I really, I don't know, I really liked her character because she was like very strong willed, especially in the later seasons and she was a very good actor. And for Creon, I put Bryan Cranston from Breaking Bad and I think that he would be really good for like portraying a villain or somebody that has a lot of pride.

Matthew
Great, I think those are some really strong castings. I can see either Cranston or Denzel as Creon. Both of them can play an authority figure, right? Like you buy them as the king and both of them can really be menacing when they want to be, but also they don't have to be, right? So they both have that kind of acting register where they could be the king and noble and they could be friendly and then they can turn the switch and they're completely menacing and you're afraid of them. So I think both of those are really good choices. 

Also, really like the Antigone choices. I like Florence Pugh a lot in general as an actress, but I definitely could also see Jennifer Lawrence pulling that off well as well as Sophie Turner. I like Chalamet as Haemon. I think that might be one of my favorites in terms of Chalamet's ability to play both strong and weak characters and so Chalamet because he is so tiny he can go into that role of being the weaker character but he also has a kind of fierceness to him when appropriate where he can kind of summon that up and he goes from this really tiny skinny little guy to a really fierce character so I think those are cool castings and I would definitely watch any version of that movie. 

Okay, one more. So the final one is the seminar sequence. Bard seminar has been conceived of as a sequence of texts that will help guide students on an intellectual journey. What is your sequence with Antigone and why? What other texts would you pair with it? And what journey would you like to take the reader on?

Jentle
the text that I paired Antigone with was, and I read it in school in my English class, years ago, it was Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." I said that both texts show a form of disobedience and how it is moral law over state law and the cost of standing up for what is right, for what you believe is right.

Aleeya 
The one that I picked, which was what I read before Antigone, was the Epic of Gilgamesh. I really like that one because, I mean, they both play into the gods and how they have an influence over the people. And I feel like, I remember I wrote about it in my class, how Gilgamesh and Creon kind of relate to each other when it comes to being prideful and a tyrant because Gilgamesh before he went on his little journey he he would like terrorize the people that lived in his city, he would rape the women, do a whole bunch of other stuff so i think it's very similar however Gilgamesh definitely realized his faults earlier on compared to Creon.

Donyjanae 
So I'd probably say the book that I would like compare it to, like going into like, you know, about a world where you don't typically get to choose, you have a very like huge dictator, I'd probably compare it to The Hunger Games. Like I feel like Antigone really had a really dystopian kind of feel with it. And like, so Sophocles really dived into like what is right and what is wrong and how you should deal with that pertaining to people in charge and like how Creon basically had, he like had followers that like when he told, when he told his followers, make sure no one touches that body. Like you have people that are threatening you, overpowering you and how do you overcome that? I feel like the Hunger Games really dives into that. But the Hunger Games also really goes into like finding yourself and finding love for yourself and love for other people because you didn't get the chance to do that maybe when you were younger or because of the system. You can like even though you're over like even though you're going against something you can also find yourself in that process and I feel like both of them do a really good job of showing that.

Matt
Those are three really cool pairings. I think there is a connection between the Hunger Games actually and Antigone. Both of them take place after a civil war, after a tragic civil war. In the Hunger Games, right, you have the districts that rise up against the capital and there's the civil war between them. And Antigone, of course, picks up after the end of a civil war in which her brother has been killed. So you do definitely have that connection and you could use that to talk about this idea of civil conflict and then the tragedies that that leads to. 

I like the idea of talking about Gilgamesh and Creon together. Both of them were extremely proud kings who felt like their word was law and as a result of that they both end up losing people very close to them. Obviously Gilgamesh loses Enkidu and Creon loses a whole lot of people, right, and general tragedy befalls the nation. 

And then I really also like the idea of the letter from a Birmingham jail. Martin Luther King similar to Antigone does talk about the way that religion has shaped his decision to resist certain things that were happening in America in his time. If you listen to his speech against the Vietnam War, for example, he talks about how his religion leads him to oppose that war. If you look at his ideas about what it looks like to have justice in America and what it looks like to combat things like poverty and racism, again, you know, he strongly couches that in terms of his understanding of religion and and morality and what it means to be a human being. 

And so obviously there are differences between all of these texts, right? Martin Luther King Jr. is not exactly Antigone. There certainly are differences there as Creon and Gilgamesh are not exactly the same people and so on. But I think those are three really cool ways of making some different connections to the text. And that's really the idea of the sequence, which is that you can pair any number of texts together and end up with really cool and unique readings and different ways of looking at each text based on the pairing. So thank you all. 

And so that is it. That is the end. Thank you all. This was really, really wonderful. I am very much impressed by your thoughtful answers to all of these prompts and your conversation with each other. I can see why your professor selected you to participate in this podcast. It's been really great. So thank you so much.

Donyjanae 
Thank you for the opportunity. I had a lot of fun.

Aleeya 
Thank you.

Me too, me too, thank you.